The Tiger Explained

Discussion of shapes with curves and holes in various dimensions.

Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:39 pm

ICN5D wrote:By cutting a radius, one or more is left intact, while the sliced radius is divided. This leads to displaced vs concentric circles with 3D torus cuts. Cutting through the major radius will make two displaced circles, leaving the minor intact. Cutting through the minor radius will make two concentric circles, leaving the major radius intact.

((II)I) - ((major)minor) 21-torus

((II)) - 20-torus, cutting minor, major is untouched
((I)I) - 11-torus, cutting major, minor is untouched

But, the tiger has a hidden minor in your notation, ((II)(II)), 220-tiger. Cutting any part will always be through a major radius, like you said.


Yes, it's hidden.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:54 am

The 2D cuts of the 4D toratopes!!

Spheritorus: ((II)II)
3D cuts
A - ((I)II) - 2 displaced spheres
B - ((II)I) - torus

2D cuts
A1 - ((i))II) - orign is empty, moving out will make a point appear, inflate to circle, deflate to point
A2 - ((Ii)I) - 2 displaced circles, moving out will make circles collapse to points

B1 - ((I)Ii) - 2 displaced circles, moving out will merge to one circle
B2 - ((II)i) - 2 concentric circles, moving out will merge into one circle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Torisphere: ((III)I)
3D cuts
A - ((II)I) - torus
B - ((III)) - 2 concentric spheres

2D cuts
A1 - ((Ii)I) - 2 displaced circles, moving out will merge into one
A2 - ((IIi)) - 2 concentric circles, moving out will merge into one

B1 - ((II)i) - 2 concentric circles, moving out will merge into one

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ditorus: (((II)I)I)
3D cuts
A - (((I)I)I) - 2 displaced toruses
B - (((II))I) - 2 concentric toruses
C - (((II)I)) - 2 cocircular toruses

2D cuts
A1 - (((i)I)I) - origin empty, moving out a circle inflates, divides into 2 circles, merge into one, deflates and vanishes
A2 - (((Ii))I) - 4 circles in a row, moving out will merge 1 with 2, and 3 with 4, leaving two in a row, then deflates and vanishes
A3 - (((Ii)I)) - 1 pair of 2 concentric circles in a row, moving out will merge concentric pairs into one, leaving 2 in a row, then vanishes

B1 - (((I)i)I) - 4 circles in a row, moving out will merge 2 with 3 and vanish, then 1 with 4 and vanish
B2 - (((II)i)) - 4 concentric circles, moving out will merge 1 with 2, and 3 with 4, leaving 2 concentric, then vanishes

C1 - (((I)I))i) - 1 pair of 2 concentric circles in a row, moving out will merge the row, inner circles merge and vanish, then outer circles merge and vanish
C2 - (((II))i) - 4 concentric circles, moving out will merge 2 with 3 and vanish, then 1 with 4 and vanish

Wheew! That's a complicated one! Hope I got it right!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tiger: ((II)(II))
3D cuts
A - ((II)(I)) - 2 vertical stacked toruses

2D cuts
A1 - ((I)(Ii)) - 4 circles in vertices of square, moving out will merge both rows into 2 circles in a row, then deflates to two points and vanishes
A2 - ((II)(i)) - origin empty, moving out will make circle appear, divide into 2 concentric circles, merge into one and vanish


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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:00 am

You know, another cool thing to have on the expanded toratope page would be a huge list of all possible combinations of cuts, with their description. We already have a few, of the 3-D ditoruses and the tigers. Along with the cut algorithm defined, it could be a great reference source in learning it. And, how about the rotation algorithm? That one's pretty cool as well.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:42 am

Good job, Phillip -- though it might be better to arrange the 2D cuts to show their relations. For example, to show that A2 and B1 for torisphere form a 2D array. Especially for tiger, where ((Ii)(I)) and ((I)(Ii)) have different orientations when displayed in the same 2D array.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:40 am

Like this?

Torisphere: ((III)I)
3D cuts
A - ((II)I) - torus
B - ((III)) - 2 concentric spheres

2D cuts
A1 - ((Ii)I) - 2 displaced circles, moving out will merge into one
A2 - ((IIi)) - 2 concentric circles, moving along Z will merge into one then vanish, moving along W will collapse both circles yo points, inner first, then outer

B1 - ((II)i) - 2 concentric circles, moving along Z will collapse both to points, moving along W will collapse both to points


Tiger: ((II)(II))
3D cuts
A - ((II)(I)) - 2 vertical stacked toruses separated along Z
B - ((I)(II)) - 2 parallel stacked toruses separated along X

2D cuts
A1 - ((I)(Ii)) - 4 circles in vertices of square, moving along X or Y will merge both rows into 2 circles in a row, then deflates to two points and vanishes
A2 - ((II)(i)) - origin empty, moving along Z will make circle appear, divide into 2 concentric circles, merge into one and vanish

B1 - ((i)(II)) - origin empty, moving along X will make circle appear, divide into 2 concentric circles, merge into one and vanish
B2 - ((Ii)(I)) - 4 circles in vertices of square, moving along Z or W will merge both rows into 2 circles in a row, then deflates to two points and vanishes
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:49 am

ICN5D wrote:Like this?

Torisphere: ((III)I)
3D cuts
A - ((II)I) - torus
B - ((III)) - 2 concentric spheres

2D cuts
A1 - ((Ii)I) - 2 displaced circles, moving out will merge into one
A2 - ((IIi)) - 2 concentric circles, moving along Z will merge into one then vanish, moving along W will collapse both circles yo points, inner first, then outer

B1 - ((II)i) - 2 concentric circles, moving along Z will collapse both to points, moving along W will collapse both to points


Tiger: ((II)(II))
3D cuts
A - ((II)(I)) - 2 vertical stacked toruses separated along Z
B - ((I)(II)) - 2 parallel stacked toruses separated along X

2D cuts
A1 - ((I)(Ii)) - 4 circles in vertices of square, moving along X or Y will merge both rows into 2 circles in a row, then deflates to two points and vanishes
A2 - ((II)(i)) - origin empty, moving along Z will make circle appear, divide into 2 concentric circles, merge into one and vanish

B1 - ((i)(II)) - origin empty, moving along X will make circle appear, divide into 2 concentric circles, merge into one and vanish
B2 - ((Ii)(I)) - 4 circles in vertices of square, moving along Z or W will merge both rows into 2 circles in a row, then deflates to two points and vanishes


Yes, but in this case you don't really have a reason to treat torisphere A2 and B1 differently, as they are the same cut. Same for tiger: A1 and B2 is the same general cut, and same for A2 and B1.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:33 pm

Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 2D array. In the first posting, I omitted the duplicate cuts. But, is there another form of the cuts that I missed, that elaborates on the current ones?
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:59 pm

Well, your last post was good as 2D arrays, except that you needlessly repeated some of them.

Take tiger for example.
((II)(II))

3D cuts are ((II)(I)) and ((I)(II)), which both look the same.

2D cuts are ((II)()) and ((I)(I)) (there's also (()(II)), but that's just a different form of the first one).
You put all the cuts in a chain 4D->3D->2D. But then you arrive to the same 2D cut from several different 3D cuts.

((II)()) is empty, with axes ((II)(i)) and ((II)(i)), which means that the array has circular symmetry and going in any direction will show you circle dividing into two concentric and remerging. Imagining the whole array will give you another way to see the tiger - in 2+2 dimensions instead of 3+1 with cuts we generally use. In this projection, both the array and every individual piece in it have circular symmetry since the two circles of underlying duocylinder are separated into two sets of dimensions.

((I)(I)) is four circles in vertices of square. Axes are ((Ii)(I)) and ((I)(Ii)), which means that they are similar but separate. In one direction, the horizontal pairs of circles are Cassini ovals that merge. In the other direction, it's the vertical pairs of circles. The purpose of this array is that you try and fill some entries that are NOT on the axes (for example, the diagonal ones). This could be easily achieved in a program by inputting the general implicit equation of tiger (I think it's on the wiki) and setting two dimensions to specific numbers. Once again, you get a 2D array of pictures that will deepen your understanding of the tiger.

That was, in general, the whole purpose to this "homework" -- to show you the 4D toratopes you might think you know by now in a different way. The 2+2-dimensional projection is good for showing the relations between various 3+1-dimensional ones, and you can also trace rotations with it by putting the axes in different directions.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:15 pm

It definitely illuminated the cut algorithm to me. I see how the notation works way better now, and how the N-2 cuts merge and dance. It's a perfect warm up exercise before stepping into 5D toratopes. But, I think it was easier than expected because I sort of knew what they should be. The visualization of cutting the 3D cuts was really good at flexing the brain, especially the ditorus cuts! I think I'll start working on those cut lists and visual descriptions sooner than later.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:25 pm

ICN5D wrote:It definitely illuminated the cut algorithm to me. I see how the notation works way better now, and how the N-2 cuts merge and dance. It's a perfect warm up exercise before stepping into 5D toratopes. But, I think it was easier than expected because I sort of knew what they should be. The visualization of cutting the 3D cuts was really good at flexing the brain, especially the ditorus cuts! I think I'll start working on those cut lists and visual descriptions sooner than later.


Or you can try and make graphical versions :)
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:08 am

So, I've been thinking about the duotorus tiger, and how it is a spherated 2121-torus. What I've been trying to figure out is what exactly is the 2121-torus? Notated by ((II)I)((II)I), it is the cartesian product of two torii, and I'm not sure how to apply it. Or, more specifically, how to combine their surfaces together visually. It seems like it would be some sort of ditorus in a ways, but a little different. I guess it would probably have two minor radii and two major radii. Or, maybe four different radii. Not sure about that one. I understand the cyltorinder ((II)I)(II) and the cyltorinder prism ((II)I)(II)I, but trying to conceptually spherate only the cylinder product (II)I is a little tough. It's like some sort of duocylinder type shape, but multiplying inflated rings together, instead of solid disks. Actually, now that I think about it, it's far more tiger-like than the duocylinder. It would have two holes as well, or, two individual pathways, superimposed into one object. Hmmmm......


EDIT:
I've done a little research, and found this sequence " (((II)I)(II)I) - 2121-torus tiger " . Is this expression identical to ((II)I)((II)I) ? If so, then this shape is easier to grasp. According to the sequence (((II)I)(II)I), we have a cyltorinder ((II)I)(II) that gets extruded into a prism ((II)I)(II)I, then that prism gets spherated like a cylinder, in a sock rolling transformation. Since the cyltorinder has two orthogonally bound ditoruses on its surface, these two will become extruded into a prism attaching the two flat cyltorinder endcaps. Now we have two ditorus prisms that are going to be snipped and rolled back onto themselves, while undergoing the spheration process. The cyltorinder endcaps have been cut away and discarded, they no longer have any use, and don't contribute to the next shape. So, how do we roll up two bound ditorus prisms? The linear extension of the prisms become a new radius, and makes this shape very 21-torus like. But, composed within its outer envelope is a whole jumble of holes, walls, and torii.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Keiji » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:51 am

ICN5D wrote:I've done a little research, and found this sequence " (((II)I)(II)I) - 2121-torus tiger " . Is this expression identical to ((II)I)((II)I) ?


No. If you have any two expressions in (extended) toratopic notation, if the expressions are the same the figure is the same, if the expressions are different the figures are different - UNLESS it contains a (), in which case the figure is the empty set (but the expressions begin to describe different figures again as you move away from the origin). So, no need to ask if two expressions are identical :)
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:26 am

Okay, that's kind of what I was thinking. Well, then this means both are uniquely different, and I've only begun to explore the (((II)I)(II)I), which is strange enough. I really have no idea where to begin with the ((II)I)((II)I), if it is a real shape. I didn't see it enumerated in any of Marek's posts.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:44 am

((II)I)((II)I) is a cartesian product of two toruses in 6D.

Imagine a circle in xy. You spherate it into torus in xyz.
Second circle is in wv and you spherate it into second torus in wvu.
Then you take their cartesian products, i.e. all points whose first coordinate lies on first torus and second coordinate lies on the second torus.

(((II)I)(II)I) is different, it's a closed toratope formed by taking cartesian product of torus and circle in 5D and then spherating the 3D surface formed from their surfaces into 6D.

However, there is also a (((II)I)((II)I)), which is when you get the cartesian product of two toruses and spherate THAT. I think I called that "duotorus tiger".
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:13 am

Marek14 wrote:(((II)I)(II)I) is different, it's a closed toratope formed by taking cartesian product of torus and circle in 5D and then spherating the 3D surface formed from their surfaces into 6D.


This seems like a cyltorindric torus to me. I'm stuck at conceptualizing the sock rolling motion to the 2 ditorus prisms, right at the connection point where they join together bent in a circle. Or maybe a ditorus-like thing, since the sock rolling turned the prisms into the minor radius of a torus. I'm still not sure. I need to apply the cuts to it, that'll shed some light.


((II)I)((II)I) is a cartesian product of two toruses in 6D.

Imagine a circle in xy. You spherate it into torus in xyz.
Second circle is in wv and you spherate it into second torus in wvu.
Then you take their cartesian products, i.e. all points whose first coordinate lies on first torus and second coordinate lies on the second torus.


Yes, I've gotten that far, but I'm not yet visualizing it. I do understand that it will be a torus branching off of every point on and within another torus. It's probably one of the strangest shapes I've come across. And, yes it's true that you detailed the duotorus tiger. But, I didn't see the ((II)I)((II)I) anywhere in the lists you made. It seems like its name would be ambiguous with the already mentioned 2121-torus (((II)I)(II)I). That's why I was initially confused with the two. So, was the ((II)I)((II)I) not listed on purpose?
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:59 am

ICN5D wrote:
Marek14 wrote:(((II)I)(II)I) is different, it's a closed toratope formed by taking cartesian product of torus and circle in 5D and then spherating the 3D surface formed from their surfaces into 6D.


This seems like a cyltorindric torus to me. I'm stuck at conceptualizing the sock rolling motion to the 2 ditorus prisms, right at the connection point where they join together bent in a circle. Or maybe a ditorus-like thing, since the sock rolling turned the prisms into the minor radius of a torus. I'm still not sure. I need to apply the cuts to it, that'll shed some light.


((II)I)((II)I) is a cartesian product of two toruses in 6D.

Imagine a circle in xy. You spherate it into torus in xyz.
Second circle is in wv and you spherate it into second torus in wvu.
Then you take their cartesian products, i.e. all points whose first coordinate lies on first torus and second coordinate lies on the second torus.


Yes, I've gotten that far, but I'm not yet visualizing it. I do understand that it will be a torus branching off of every point on and within another torus. It's probably one of the strangest shapes I've come across. And, yes it's true that you detailed the duotorus tiger. But, I didn't see the ((II)I)((II)I) anywhere in the lists you made. It seems like its name would be ambiguous with the already mentioned 2121-torus (((II)I)(II)I). That's why I was initially confused with the two. So, was the ((II)I)((II)I) not listed on purpose?


It wasn't listed because it's not a closed toratope, but an open one. My list was a list of closed toratopes.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Secret » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:28 pm

I have spent around a week re-reading this entire thread to ensure I have understood everything mentioned here, and in the end I put my comments in the attached word document (because there is simply too many to list them here in the post)

I might have misunderstood something so feel free to reply with corrections (not necessary involve re attaching the word doc)

Note because I made my comments on my way through, nearly post by post, so there will be some question marks that are answered somewhere later down the file. Also all my illustrations are resizable pics, so you can enlarge them to have a closer look

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7G7KM ... sp=sharing
(Because phpBB forums give me white screen when I tried to upload this ~7MB word doc)

==============
Summary of major issues:
*1. The toratopic notation, kept getting weird stuff, I understand that I gives the no. of dimensions and () is the torus product, or something that specify the diameters of the objects, but how does things get fit together? Trying to read about it on the wiki http://hddb.teamikaria.com/wiki/Toratopic_notation but it gives little idea on how the toratopes are constructed step by step when you move from left to right, inside to outside of the notation
2. When Klitzling explained how the comb product in terms of polytope elements, I fail to understand what is going on in that post. What background maths do I need to understand the polytope elements?
3. From the glossary, swirl means something that perform a clifford rotation (e.g. xy zw planes rotating at the same rate). Wendy mentioned that the Tiger is a type of swirl prism. Are swirl prisms are 4D objects produced when one lathe something by a swirl? Where I can find more about swirl prisms?
4. Wendy's method in detecting a hole, or genus of a manifold (see related thread for details)
==============
Some findings:
1.Using Jonathen B's cross sectional renderings, and piecing them together, get the full picture of the holes of the 4 4D toratopes. In particular, the tiger's hole is one complicated hole which is clifford torus shaped w.r.t. placing a hedrid (planar tesseriod object) through it. The findings are also consistent with what Keiji illustrated earlier and Wendy's descriptions on how it is a torus shaped hole

Using Wendy's folding instructions back somewhere in page 2
2a. Successfully folded the Tiger from a torinder. Upon analysing its structure in the parallel projection, found that the torii that formed the surchorid/rind/surface volume of the tiger are ordinary torii in basically two different orientations with their major circle tracing out a clifford torus. The tiger is also as mentioned by Wendy and a few others to be basically a puffed up clifford torus/duocylinder ridge, and how the puffed up ridge, regardless of which of the 2 of them you choose, give the exact same thing. Thus if you puff up a duocylinder, you get basically two identical tigers overlapping with each other
2b. Found for the ditorus, two of the circles in the donut torus that are not pointing in the direction of the axis of poundering trace out clifford torii, which reminds of the torolatitudes of a 3-sphere/glome. These are not revealed in the geometry of the holes since they lies outside the region where the holes are
3. A better understanding on how the comb product works, which if I have not mistaken it acts roughly like this

comb(ABCD) choose B=surtope(A) x surtope(B) ->hose rolling into a loop -> surtope(resulting thing) x surtope C -> sock rolling into a loop -> surtope(resulting thing) x surtope(D) ->sock rolling into a loop
==============
Edit
1. I have mixed up between the spheritorus and torisphere near the beginning of the document
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:20 pm

Hmm, can you also upload it to some other file sharing site? I can't get to Google docs at this moment.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Secret » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:13 pm

Try the mediafire link
http://www.mediafire.com/view/2z40i9pp3 ... quote.docx

You can skip the ad after 5 s (I only have basic mediafire)
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:44 pm

Well, as for toratopic notation, I discussed it extensively in here recently while expanding ICN5D's understanding. At this point we basically have a good working version that excels in describing coordinate cuts.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Secret » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:43 pm

Marek14 wrote:Well, as for toratopic notation, I discussed it extensively in here recently while expanding ICN5D's understanding. At this point we basically have a good working version that excels in describing coordinate cuts.

Umm
So from a rather recent post, I understand that the I are supposed to represent the number of dimensions (MEAT) and the () are supposed to represent the unique diameters to be specified (BONE)

So starting from the basics and working up to 4D (where * denote the cartesian product for this post)
={}=Nothing
I=digon=line segment
II=I*I=Square
III=I*I*I=Cube
IIII=I*I*I*I=Tesseract

And then we have
()=Empty
(I)=Something with one dimension and one unique diameter=0-Sphere=digon=line segment
(II)=Something with two dimensions and one unique diameter=Circle or disk?
(III)=Something with three dimensions and one unique diameter=2-Sphere or 3-Ball (solid 3D 'sphere')?
(IIII)=Similar with four dimensions=Glome (3-sphere) or 4-Ball?

And then we have
()I={}*I=Empty
(I)I=Something with a total of 2 dimensions and one unique diameter?=Digon*I=Square?
(II)I=Similarly with total 3 dimensions and one unique diameter=(Circle or disk)*I=Cylinder hose or solid cylinder?
(III)I=..total 4D & one unique diameter=(2-Sphere or 3-Ball)*I=Spherinder hose or solid spherinder?

And then we have
()II=Empty
(I)II=Digon*I*I=Cube?
(II)II=(Circle or disk)*I*I=(Cylinder hose or solid cylinder)*I=Cublinder hose or solid cublinder?

And then we have
()III=Empty
(I)III=Digon*I*I*I=Tesseract?

And then we have
(I)(I)=Square?
(I)(II)=Cylinder hose or cylinder?
(I)(III)=Spherinder hose or spherinder?

And then we have
(II)(I)=Cylinder hose or cylinder?
(II)(II)=(Circle or Disk)*(Circle or Disk)=Two duocylinder ridges glued together or solid duocylinder?

And then we have
(III)(I)=Spherinder hose or spherinder?

And then we have
((I)I)=Something with a total of 2D and 2 unique diameters=Square*I & 1 unique diameter=?
((I)II)=total 3D & 2 unique diameters=Cube*I & 1 unique diameter=?
((I)III)=total 4D & 2 unique diameters=Tesseract*I & 1 unique diameter=?

And then we have
((II)I)=total 3D & 2 unique diameters=Circle*I & 1 unique diameter=?
((II)II)=total 4D & 2 unique diameters=?

And then we have
((III)I)=total 4D & 2 unique diameters=(2-Sphere or 3-ball)*I & 1 unique diameter=?

And then we have
((IIII))=total 4D & 2 unique diameters=glome or solid glome (4-ball) & 1 unique diameter=Concentric glome (hollow or solid) based on the extended notation?

And then we have
((I)(I))=total 2D & 3 diameters=?
((I)(II))=total 3D & 3 diameters=?
((I)(III))=total 4D and 3 diameters=digon*(2-Sphere or 3-ball)=?

And then we have
((II)(I))=total 3D & 3 diameters=?
((II)(II))=total 4D & 3 diameters=(Circle or disk)*(Circle or disk) & 2 unique diameters=Duocylinder (hollow or solid) & 2 unique diameters=?

And then we have
((III)(I))=total 4D & 4 diameters=?

And then we have
((((I)I)I)I)=Total 4D and 4 diameters=?
.........

And then...
?=Clifford torus
?=Crind/Dome

===============
Because of how Wendy had clarified some pages ago that spheration is a 'paint job' fleshing out a skeleton such as making lines into cylinders and points into spheres, and it does not add an extra dimension or build anything, and how in order to build stuff you need build operators like the comb product and the 4 other brick products (crind,prism,tegum,pyramid),
http://hddb.teamikaria.com/wiki/Spheration

It seems the () no longer mean spheration, despite how spherating a cylinder hose give a torus
I also remember some ages ago Keiji mentioned how the toratopic notation is set in a way so that it can be converted back to the maths formula easily (which is why the Spheritorus is being named toracubinder in the past)

Therefore I am completely at lost at how to build shapes step by step according to the notation and found ICN5D's easier to follow
Last edited by Secret on Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:01 pm

Well, the problem is that free I's tend to work differently based on whether you're doing open toratope (not enclosed in parenthesis) or closed one (enclosed). For open toratopes they signify cartesian product by digon. For closed they merely show dimensional extension of parentheses they are inside (i.e. how many dimensions are added to dimensions of other terms in these parentheses). That's why I developed the notation primary for closed ones.

((I)(I)) is, in this notation, four circles in vertices of rectangle:

(I) is two points (surface of 1-sphere)
(I)(I) is cartesian product of two such forms, i.e. four points in rectangle.
((I)(I)) replaces each point with a set of points in given distance from it, i.e. a circle.

For ((I)(II)), you have (I) as two points and (II) as circle; their cartesian product are two circles in parallel planes. ((I)(II)) replaces each circle with set of points that have given distance to it, thus you get two parallel toruses.

((I)(III)) is analogical. You get (I) as two points, (III) as a sphere, cartesian product are two spheres in parallel hyperplanes and ((I)(III)) replaces each sphere with a toraspherinder whose points have given distance from its surface, so you get two parallel toraspherinders.

((III)(I)) is the same thing -- terms in one set of parentheses can be arbitrarily switched.

((II)(II)) then is tiger: you start with two circles (II), take their cartesian product and find set of point with given distance to each product. The two major diameters of the figure are the diameters of the circles while the minor radius is distance of surface to the cartesian product.

((((I)I)I)I) then would be built like this:

(I) - two points.
((I)I) - spherate, with 1 added dimension (since the second I is free): two circles.
(((I)I)I) - spherate again, with 1 more added dimension: two toruses in same plane.
((((I)I)I)I) - spherate again, and add 1 more dimension: two ditoruses in same plane.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby wendy » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:58 am

We're still looking at holes, but we're bringing some fancy things to play.

The Comb product.

The symbol for the comb product is ##. This means that when we expand out the surtope equation (eg for a cube 6h+12e+8v), we don't add ones at either end. The possibilities are that we can add 1's at each end ** pyramid, or at either end *# = prism, #* = tegum. The cube, by adding a leading 1, gives 1c + 6h + 12e + 8v, and 1.6.12.8 = 1.2 cubed, the cube is the third prism-power of a line.

The comb product, as described, might be read as a series of 'tunnel-building' exercises. The product of A ## B gives, eg a tunnel whose plan on the ground is A, and the cross-section of B. Note the 'plan on the ground' is the surface of A. The product of A ## B ## C gives a tunnel, whose plan is the surface of A ## B, and the cross-section of C. Adding more terms to the end of this turns the surface of the previous tunnel into the path the new tunnel must follow.

Topologically, A ## B = B ## A, and one can pretty much mess up the order of A, B, C. This is because the comb product conserns itself with a surface, and not the volume. The net (shape you fold up to make the figure) for all of these is essentially identical: the cartesian product of the nets of the elements.

For ordinary purposes, A ## B is not the same as B ## A. A 12#5 gives a wheel with pentagonal section, and makes 12 marks per revolution. A 5#12 makes a wheel with a dodecagonal section, and makes 5 marks per revolution.

In four dimensions, one can multiply 5,3 ## 10. This would give a solid covered by 120 pentagonal prisms. But there are two different solids with this exact same surface: 10 # 5,3 also has it. We can show it by the sock-and-hose experiment.

The comb product is simply a prism-product of the surface, so we supplse we have a dodecahedral base (hollow), which we take the cartesian product with a 10-segment line. This makes something that is equivalent to a spherinder (spherical prism). We can slip a larger sphere-ring down the outside, and a string or line (circle-surface) down the inside.

If we connect the ends as a hose, the circle-line comes to be inside, and the sphere ring is outside. This is a 10 ## 5,3 comb. The plan is a decagon, the cross-section is a 5,3.

If on the other hand, we roll the top down like a sock, it will join the bottom, and cover the sphere-ring. The circle-surface is outside now. The plan on the ground is a dodecahedron-floor, and the cross-section is a decagon. It's a 5.3 ## 10 comb.

Holes

Wendy is still trying to figure out how holes work in 4d and 5d, but there are a lot of weird ones out there.

The latest experiment is the 'hollow sphere' model. The surface of a sphere projects onto a plane by way of the projection from the opposite pole. This is a conformal mapping, but it puts the complete surface of a sphere onto a plane.

The idea is that one can model a number of figures with holes in them, as a sphere with holes in it. The projection will then produce an N-1 figure (which must be in one peice), with various holes and cavities.

We suppose outside must be "connected". In 2D, any solid that leaves outside connected is topolically equal to a circle.

In 3D, the surface of a hollow sphere can only have circle-shaped holes let into it, and one needs two of them to make a figure with a hole. The first of the holes let in, is used to project the sphere onto a plane. So it is outside. The rest of the holes then equates to a pancake with 1, 2, 3, ... holes poked into it. The number of these holes is the 'genus'.

In 4D, we still have the hollow-glome to wall projection, and the requirement that the "outside-the-holes" to be connected. But we can put a great variety of different holes into it. One can push in, any number of 'pancakes-with-holes' into the wall, and it's not only the holes. They can be linked.

And because a knotted string, like a trifoil knot, is a continious thing in 3d, it is a valid hole in 4d. And herein lies another issue. It is clear that a trifoil knot is something like a circle, but we can't turn the trifoil knot into a circle, so there are more holes in nature than the hollow sphere makes.

One can, for example, cut the surface of a glome into two parts, each identical. For example, the o3x4x3o consists of 48 tC. If we take the 24 that are co-connected by triangles only (ie from one end only), the half-surface is connected, and the hole is the same shape as the half-surface. Yet the figure is immeasuably more complex than the tiger.

The various rototope notations describe a specific kind of hole derived from the hollow-sphere model. You can have knotted and linked holes (like the tiger).

In 5D, we have a wall, which we can poke any 4d figure, including those with holes. We can, for example, have tiger-shaped holes, all linked together.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Secret » Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:04 am

Checking my understanding...

So we know
I..I=I*(n times)=n cube
(I..I)=n sphere
Let x be cartesian product
From a few pages back, i represent the dimension where you made a cut to the toratopes (if I understand it correctly)?

For the 4D torii
((II)I)I)
1. (II)=Start with circle
2. ((II)I)=Extend each point on the circle with a given fixed radius and add 1 dimension=spherate circle in 3D (as if you spherate it in 2D you only end up with a hollow annulus or concentric circles=((II)) )=torus
3.((II)I)I)=Spherate the torus in 3+1=4D=Ditorus

((III)I)
1.(III)=Start with 2-sphere (not 3-ball)
2. ((III)I)=Spherate 2-sphere in 3+1=4D=Torisphere

((II)(II))
1.(II)=Start with circle
2. (II)(II)=Circle x circle=Duocylinder=two clifford torii attached to each other orthogonally
3. ((II)(II))=Spherate duocylinder 2-frame in 0+4=4D=Duotorus=Tiger (Each point cannot be spherated into 2-spheres as you will end up having overlaps?)

((II)II)
1. (II)=Start with circle
2. ((II)II)=Spherate Circle in 2+2=4D=Each point becomes 2-spheres=Spheritorus

For some open 4D toratopes
(II)II
1. (II)=Start with circle
2. (II)II=Circle*digon*digon=Circle*2-frame square (i.e. solid square)=Square clifford torus=square torus portion of cubinder?

(III)I
1. (III)=Start with 2-sphere
2. (III)I=2-sphere*digon=Spherinder hose

(I)III
1. (I)=Start with 2 points (1-sphere)
2. (I)I=2 points*digon=2 parallel line segments
3. (I)II=2 parallel line segments*digon=2 2-framed squares (solid squares) placed in parallel and displaced in the orthogonal direction like a pair of capacitor plates
4. (I)III=2 parallel squares*digon=2 parallel 3-framed cubes (solid cubes) displaced from each other in the orthogonal direction?

((II)I)I
1. ((II)I)=torus
2. ((II)I)I=torus*digon=torinder?

Misc.
(((((I)))I)I)
1. (I)=Start with 2 dots
2. ((I))=Spherate in 0+1=1D=4 Dots ("1-annulus?")
3. (((I)))=Spherate it again in 0+1=1D=8 dots
4. ((((I)))I)=Spherate it in 1+1=2D=8 circles in a line
5. (((((I)))I)I)=Spherate it in 1+2=3D=8 torii in a line, all coplanar

How to make?
1. A single dot (0-sphere) since ()=empty?
2. dots of numbers not powers of 2 (since (I)=2 dots, (I)(I)=4 dots in a square formation, (I)(I)(I)..(I)=2^n dots in a n cube formation)?
3. Disk (Since (II) is just a circle (2-sphere))?
4. Clifford parallel circles that are concentric (e.g. one circle in xw, another in yz)?
5. Clifford parallel circles that are displaced from one another in a certain direction (e.g. yz and xw circles separated along x by a certain distance)?
6. Just the 4 circles of a cubinder (they are all arranged in parallel planes, say parallel to xy, and the circles form a 2x2 grid in the zw plane) (As ((I)(I)) only make 4 coplanar circles arranged in a square formation)?
7. A 2 framed clifford torus in e.g. xy (i.e. roll a cylinder hose placed in xyz along the w direction (so the rolling take place in the zw plane and all xy coordinates stays put, you end up with something that is topologically equivalent to a torus, or by analogy a rolled up cylinder hose with the circular bit in the zw plane but each digon cross section on the strip is a circle in xy)?
8. Odd number of concentric circles (Since ((II)) makes 2, (((II))) makes 4 as you spherate the resulting annulus looking thing in 2D and ((..(II)..)) makes 2^n of them)?
9. 4 Circles stacked in a line like a stack of plates (Since if I try (((I))II), I get 4 2-spheres stacked in a line)?
10. Cocircular and cencentric torii (e.g. Start with xy circle, spherate one of them with extra dimension in z, another in w, to end up with torii xyz and xyw sharing the same major circle xy)?
11. Number of concentric, cocircular, coplanr etc. entities which are not in numbers of powers of 2?

P.S. Forget the crind for now, I just checked the wiki its a bracketope
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Secret » Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:09 am

wendy wrote:We're still looking at holes, but we're bringing some fancy things to play.

The Comb product.

The symbol for the comb product is ##. This means that when we expand out the surtope equation (eg for a cube 6h+12e+8v), we don't add ones at either end. The possibilities are that we can add 1's at each end ** pyramid, or at either end *# = prism, #* = tegum. The cube, by adding a leading 1, gives 1c + 6h + 12e + 8v, and 1.6.12.8 = 1.2 cubed, the cube is the third prism-power of a line.

The comb product, as described, might be read as a series of 'tunnel-building' exercises. The product of A ## B gives, eg a tunnel whose plan on the ground is A, and the cross-section of B. Note the 'plan on the ground' is the surface of A. The product of A ## B ## C gives a tunnel, whose plan is the surface of A ## B, and the cross-section of C. Adding more terms to the end of this turns the surface of the previous tunnel into the path the new tunnel must follow. [...]


So if I have A ## B ## C then first
1. I have A ## B make a prism of cross section B and a 'height' with the shape of A unfolded. I then hose folding the prism so that B end up outside (the cross section of the resulting ring shaped object) and A in the inside (so A forms something akin to the equator of a torus), I then obtained a B tori A
2. I then unfold B tori A again and make a prism of it with the cross section C and 'height'=net of B tori A. I then hose fold this prism so that C ends up outside and A ## B (which during the fold becomes B tori A again) inside. So in the end I get C tori B tori A?

And if I take the sock rolling approach, then I am essentially doing C ## B ## A using the hose folding approach?

P.S.
1. Is folding a cylinder hose (using a hedrix (paper stripe) and roll it up so that its ends joined) and folding a clifford torus using a cylinder hose a type of hose folding. Or equivalently, is hose folding and sock rolling always involve an axis of poundering (that the inner circlur region always end up squished and the outer circular region always stretched (e.g. in an ordinary torus))?
2. I noticed back in page 2 if you have a torinder (Spherated glomolatrix line prism?) with the major radius circle of the torus parallel to the xy plane, height parallel to the w axis, and you fold it along the w direction (i.e. the folding take place in the zw plane), then you get the tiger like you get a cylinder hose by folding a paper strip. I think the answer to 1 might help to incorporate the construction of a tiger using the comb product

wendy wrote:Holes

Wendy is still trying to figure out how holes work in 4d and 5d, but there are a lot of weird ones out there.

The latest experiment is the 'hollow sphere' model. The surface of a sphere projects onto a plane by way of the projection from the opposite pole. This is a conformal mapping, but it puts the complete surface of a sphere onto a plane.

The idea is that one can model a number of figures with holes in them, as a sphere with holes in it. The projection will then produce an N-1 figure (which must be in one piece), with various holes and cavities.

We suppose outside must be "connected". In 2D, any solid that leaves outside connected is topolically equal to a circle.


Using what you mentioned about counting holes in a 1-frame cube (i.e. wireframe cube) on how there are 5 holes because its stereographic projection gives a 'square within a square' picture and 5 of the faces (the central square and the 4 trapezoid in the projection) are where the holes are, while the 6th face was projected to the outside thus not counted as a hole?

Using the hollow sphere model, if I have a N figure with t holes of various shapes poked into it, then when I project this figure on a N-1 hyperplane (N-1 id), I get basically a N-1 thing with all t holes being distributed in locations correspond to where it originally was on the N figure?

wendy wrote:In 3D, the surface of a hollow sphere can only have circle-shaped holes let into it, and one needs two of them to make a figure with a hole. The first of the holes let in, is used to project the sphere onto a plane. So it is outside. The rest of the holes then equates to a pancake with 1, 2, 3, ... holes poked into it. The number of these holes is the 'genus'.


I don't understand. Since if you poke a hole on a sphere, wouldn't it goes from something where you cannot gain access to the inside (in 3D) to something you can now enter, and hence making a hole in the sphere which you can enter and exit from?

wendy wrote:In 4D, we still have the hollow-glome to wall projection, and the requirement that the "outside-the-holes" to be connected. But we can put a great variety of different holes into it. One can push in, any number of 'pancakes-with-holes' into the wall, and it's not only the holes. They can be linked.

One of my favorite is a clifford torus shaped hole, which it functions like the slit in a 3D piggybank, except a very interesting slit that you can fit a planar rod through it

wendy wrote:And because a knotted string, like a trifoil knot, is a continious thing in 3d, it is a valid hole in 4d. And herein lies another issue. It is clear that a trifoil knot is something like a circle, but we can't turn the trifoil knot into a circle, so there are more holes in nature than the hollow sphere makes.


Since on a glome you can poke holes of any 3D shape, can we also poke a moebius shaped hole into it. What property would it had?

wendy wrote:One can, for example, cut the surface of a glome into two parts, each identical. For example, the o3x4x3o consists of 48 tC. If we take the 24 that are co-connected by triangles only (ie from one end only), the half-surface is connected, and the hole is the same shape as the half-surface. Yet the figure is immeasuably more complex than the tiger.

The various rototope notations describe a specific kind of hole derived from the hollow-sphere model. You can have knotted and linked holes (like the tiger).

In 5D, we have a wall, which we can poke any 4d figure, including those with holes. We can, for example, have tiger-shaped holes, all linked together.


I am not good enough for the dyklin diagrams to understand the ox notations yet, I will read more about it in the "notations and notions" thread later
For the "cutting the glome into 2 equal parts, are you mentioning about cutting the 3 sphere in half along the toroquator instead of the spherequator (which will give 2 hemi 3-spheres/hemiglome?
Last edited by Secret on Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:06 am

Secret wrote:((II)(II))
1.(II)=Start with circle
2. (II)(II)=Circle x circle=Duocylinder=two clifford torii attached to each other orthogonally
3. ((II)(II))=Spherate duocylinder 2-frame in 0+4=4D=Duotorus=Tiger (Each point cannot be spherated into 2-spheres as you will end up having overlaps?)


Actually, each point will be spherated into 1-sphere, whose exact orientation will differ point by point. Easier is to simply spherate each point by 4-sphere and then take the surface of resulting set.


For some open 4D toratopes
(II)II
1. (II)=Start with circle
2. (II)II=Circle*digon*digon=Circle*2-frame square (i.e. solid square)=Square clifford torus=square torus portion of cubinder?



Here's a little problem with open toratopes -- the closed ones can be done with just surfaces, but the open ones wouldn't really work like that since (II)I would end up as two parallel circles...


How to make?
1. A single dot (0-sphere) since ()=empty?
2. dots of numbers not powers of 2 (since (I)=2 dots, (I)(I)=4 dots in a square formation, (I)(I)(I)..(I)=2^n dots in a n cube formation)?
3. Disk (Since (II) is just a circle (2-sphere))?
4. Clifford parallel circles that are concentric (e.g. one circle in xw, another in yz)?
5. Clifford parallel circles that are displaced from one another in a certain direction (e.g. yz and xw circles separated along x by a certain distance)?
6. Just the 4 circles of a cubinder (they are all arranged in parallel planes, say parallel to xy, and the circles form a 2x2 grid in the zw plane) (As ((I)(I)) only make 4 coplanar circles arranged in a square formation)?
7. A 2 framed clifford torus in e.g. xy (i.e. roll a cylinder hose placed in xyz along the w direction (so the rolling take place in the zw plane and all xy coordinates stays put, you end up with something that is topologically equivalent to a torus, or by analogy a rolled up cylinder hose with the circular bit in the zw plane but each digon cross section on the strip is a circle in xy)?
8. Odd number of concentric circles (Since ((II)) makes 2, (((II))) makes 4 as you spherate the resulting annulus looking thing in 2D and ((..(II)..)) makes 2^n of them)?
9. 4 Circles stacked in a line like a stack of plates (Since if I try (((I))II), I get 4 2-spheres stacked in a line)?
10. Cocircular and cencentric torii (e.g. Start with xy circle, spherate one of them with extra dimension in z, another in w, to end up with torii xyz and xyw sharing the same major circle xy)?
11. Number of concentric, cocircular, coplanr etc. entities which are not in numbers of powers of 2?

P.S. Forget the crind for now, I just checked the wiki its a bracketope


Seems that these can't be done with the current notation.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:11 am

Probably the best way to learn the cut algorithm is to forget about the open toratope cuts for now, and nail down the closed type first. I posted the open cuts here viewtopic.php?f=24&t=801&start=210#p20089, only to display the function of the algorithm, to show that it also works. But, you have to change the rules for it to work. So, trying to learn both simultaneously will cause endless confusion. It may be in your powers to do both, but the learning curve will be steeper.

Odd number pairings cannot be made by the cuts of any toratope, as far as I know. They are always an even number or a single one, tracing back to the primordial cut of a circle as two points. Cutting a hollow circle is analogous to cutting any toratope through a radius, exposing the hole in the middle of two cut-shapes. Marek's system uses cartesian products along with spheration. It also happens to be in the opposite order of diameters to mine, except for tigroids. I'm using linear construction along with cartesian products with hollow shapes. Both can be seen in each other, but are applied differently. Cartesian products are easy to see, but spheration is more abstract and complex in its physical transformation. From what I gather, spheration is more of a sock-rolling method to any (n-sphere,line) or (toratope,line)-prism, like the cylinder, spherinder, glominder, pentaspherinder, torinder, etc. All must be rolled up like a sock to achieve the correct shape. If using a hose connection method, these types turn into the toratopic dual of a sock-rolling. For the {n-sphere,m-cube}-prisms, where m≥2, spheration is even more abstract. All flat ends are snipped, leaving behind the toratope surcell. It's always the m-cube(n-sphere) toratope (in my notation), but its transformation always adds a dimension and smooths out the minor shape into an m+1-sphere.

Using my notation with toratopes,

{n-sphere,m-cube}-prism :

• Has 2 x M number of {n-sphere,(m-1)-cube}-prisms
• Has an m-cube(n-sphere) toratope surcell
• Spheration makes the (m+1)-sphere(n-sphere) toratope, (m+1)-sphere is the meat, (n-sphere) is the bones


Take the cylinder for instance: (II)I , we have two flat circle endcaps connected by a hollow tube, the line torus. This is the prism of the edge of a disk. The line torus is the linear extension between the edge of both disks. It has a radius and a linear length. The sock rolling method will snip out the two circle endcaps, leaving a hollow tube behind. If we then take one end and curl it back, rolling it down, we can attach the two cut ends together, and make a torus. This turns the linear extension into a new, minor radius, the circle torus. The original major radius stays the same. The hose link also produces the same shape with a cylinder.

(II)I - cylinder
((II)I) - torus, sock-roll
((II)I) - torus, hose-link

Sock-Roll
• Cylinder: [ |O-2 , |(O) ], two circles |O-2, and a line torus |(O)
• Snip out two circles leaves line torus |(O)
• Roll line torus back to make circle out of line, circle torus |O(O)

Hose-Link
• Cylinder: [ |O-2 , |(O) ], two circles |O-2, and a line torus |(O)
• Snip out two circles leaves line torus |(O)
• Bend linear extension around and join ends making circle major radius out of line, switching the original major into the new minor radius, torus |O(O)

This also works with the torisphere, being made by spherating a spherinder (III)I --> ((III)I). The spherinder has two flat sphere endcaps, connected by a single linear extension of the surface of both spheres. The surface of a sphere can be described as having an infinite number of points, and so becomes a point torisphere. When we extrude this we get a line torisphere, the prism of the edge of a sphere. Now, we cut the spheres out, leaving just the line torisphere: the 4D analog of a cardboard tube. One could wrap spherical paper towels around this kind of hollow tube. One could also grab one open end and curl it back, rolling the linear extension into a circular extension, the new minor radius. This makes a circle along surface of sphere, the torisphere. The original major radius is spherical, the minor part a line. By rolling it back and joining the snipped ends, the line is turned into a circle.

(III)I - spherinder
((III)I) - torisphere, sock-roll
((II)II) - spheritorus, hose-link

Sock-Roll
• Spherinder |OO| = [ |OO-2 . |(OO) ] , two spheres |OO-2, and a line torisphere |(OO)
• Snip out the sphere ends, leaving hollow tube of line torisphere |(OO)
• Roll linear extension back into a circle, torisphere |O(OO)

Hose-Link
• Spherinder |OO| = [ |OO-2 . |(OO) ] , two spheres |OO-2, and a line torisphere |(OO)
• Snip out the sphere ends, leaving hollow tube of line torisphere |(OO)
• Bend linear extension around and join ends making circle major radius out of line, switching the original major into the new minor radius, spheritorus |OO(O)


However, this method changes the outcome with certain open toratopes. If we hose-link a spherinder, we get the spheritorus. If we sock-roll a spherinder, a torisphere results. By sock-rolling a cubinder, we are snipping out the flat cylinder ends, leaving only a hollow square torus tube. By rolling this square torus back onto itself, we add a spin operator to the square cross cut, and get a cylinder torus, or torinder. If we hose-link a cubinder, we are snipping out two cylinder ends, leaving two cylinders and a square torus behind, with two openings separated by a linear extension. Then, we bend this linear part around into a circle to make a torinder.

(II)II - cubiner, |O||
((II)II) - spheritorus, |OO(O)
((II)I)I - torinder

Sock-Rolling
• Cubinder |O|| = [ |O|-2 , |O|-2 , ||(O) ] , four cylinders |O| and a square torus ||(O)
• Snip cylinders out, leaving hollow square torus tube ||(O)
• Roll square part back, adding circular extension, making cylinder torus ||O(O), or a torinder |O(O)|

Hose-Linking, not sure about this one, but I'll try
• Cubinder |O|| = [ |O|-2 , |O|-2 , ||(O) ] , four cylinders ||O and a square torus ||(O)
• Snip one cylinder pair out, leaving two openings, 2 cylinders and square torus |O|-2 , ||(O)
• Bend open ends around and join in a circle, makes torinder/cylinder torus ||O(O) = [ |O(O)-2 , |(O)(O) ]

Spheration
• Cubinder |O|| = [ |O|-2 , |O|-2 , ||(O) ] , four cylinders |O| and a square torus ||(O)
• Snip cylinders out, leaving hollow square torus tube ||(O)
• Add 1 dimension to square crosscut making cube III, then spherate cube to sphere, as part of spheritorus |OO(O)


In writing this post, I noticed a new algorithm can be made that defines sock-rolls and hose-links for all rotopes! It's actually quite simple, but requires that one identify the type of curved face on them, especially for the sock-rolling. This is where my line torus, square torus, square torisphere, etc notations come into play. Identifying the crosscut will allow us to create the next minor radius shape, by adding a spin operator. Sock rolling requires that one cut out all flat ends, leaving only the equivalent hollow tube(s) behind. Hose linking joins linear extensions into circular ones, smoothing them out into one circular major radius. I have elaborated on it above.


As for how all this fits in with the cut algorithm, I think I got lost along the way, and went off on a tangent. So, I'll have to detail that after I get some sleep. But, maybe it has some insights worthy of dissecting.

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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Keiji » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:25 pm

Marek14 wrote:
How to make?
1. A single dot (0-sphere) since ()=empty?

Seems that these can't be done with the current notation.


A single point is the empty string.

The extended toratopic notation page might also help you understand how to "build up" toratopes.
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Keiji
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby Marek14 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:38 pm

Keiji wrote:
Marek14 wrote:
How to make?
1. A single dot (0-sphere) since ()=empty?

Seems that these can't be done with the current notation.


A single point is the empty string.

The extended toratopic notation page might also help you understand how to "build up" toratopes.


Hm, true. () is then point spherated in zero dimensions, which is naturally empty.
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Re: The Tiger Explained

Postby ICN5D » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:14 am

So, I did some poking around with ((II)I)((II)I) the {torus,torus}-prism, and derived the 5D surface elements on it. It has two orthogonally bound tritoruses, interestingly enough. Then, I noticed that another shape had the same exact surface elements on it, the (((II)I)I)(II), cylditorinder {ditorus,circle}-prism. These shapes must be the same, because they show a commuting cartesian product at work! It's the hollow circle from the second torus that commuted to the first. It can split away from the circle, leaving it alone by itself, and join the first torus becoming a ditorus. I found that interesting.

torus = (circle,glomolatrix) = ((II)I)

ditorus = [ (circle,glomolatrix) , (glomolatrix) ] = (((II)I)I)

(torus,torus) = [ (circle,glomolatrix) , (circle,glomolatrix) ] = ((II)I)((II)I)

(ditorus,circle) = { [ (circle,glomolatrix),(glomolatrix) ] , circle } = (((II)I)I)(II)

(torus,torus) = (ditorus,circle) = ((II)I)((II)I) = (((II)I)I)(II)

[ (circle,glomolatrix) , (circle,glomolatrix) ] = { [ (circle,glomolatrix),(glomolatrix) ] , circle }

Using the current numerical toratope notation in a cartesian product layout:

Hollow Circle = 1 = (I)
Circle = 2 = (II)
Torus = 21 = ((II)I)
Ditorus = 211 = (((II)I)I)

(21,21) = (211,2)


And in the notation I made,

|O(O)[|O(O)] = ((II)I)((II)I)

|O(O)(O)|O = (((II)I)I)(II)

|O(O)[|O(O)] = |O(O)(O)|O = |O(O)(O)[|O]

This is easier to see, because the (...) is a cartesian product with a hollow shape, where the ... term inside are the operators of the hollow one, with the first " | " omitted. The [...] is the cartesian product with a solid shape, (...) is a hollow shape. The [(...)] is equal to (...). But the [(...)(...)] is NOT equal to (...)(...), which would be the cartesian product of two hollow shapes, resulting in the tigroids. The (...)(...) represents a linear sequence of hollow products, resulting in ditoruses, tritoruses, etc.

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