A new 4D particle system

Ideas about how a world with more than three spatial dimensions would work - what laws of physics would be needed, how things would be built, how people would do things and so on.

A new 4D particle system

Postby Keiji » Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:23 pm

(Yes, I know there's another topic with pretty much the same name that I posted over four years ago. Finding it while rearranging the forums inspired me to think up this one.)

For this particle system, I'm going to throw out any concepts of "quarks", "electrons", "atoms" and so on, and "orbits" which everyone has had so much trouble finding in 4D. I'm going to start completely from scratch and base my system upon just two "axioms":

1. There exists one fundamental kind of particle. I shall call this ε (epsilon). The symbol is arbitrary, I chose it only because the particle reminds me of electrons in some ways, but do not think that it is an electron, because it isn't.

2. There is a function which determines, non-linearly, a force which acts on one ε-particle as attraction or repulsion from an arrangement of other ε-particles. I won't define how this function works yet (if ever!), because I'm sure it's quite complicated and its behaviour is responsible for ensuring that everything works as it should. I'll describe the behaviour in a passive, somewhat macroscopic way throughout the post.

Okay, now that that's out the way, I'll get to describing how this system actually works.

Fundamentals

In the real world we are used to there being the concepts of "matter" and "energy" which are interchangeable through nuclear reactions and the like. Here, matter and energy are both formed by arrangements of ε-particles. I'll focus on energy first since it's much simpler. More specifically, energy is more or less equivalent to EM radiation, i.e. light, and travels in groups of six ε-particles. We can consider each 6ε group as one bigger particle which I'll call ɣ (gamma). Again the symbol is arbitrary, I chose it because gamma is a form of EM radiation in our universe. Now, from the frame of reference of a ɣ-particle, each ε-particle moves repeatedly in a circle, with a particular frequency (how many revolutions the particle makes in unit time) and amplitude (the radius of the circle). All six ε-particles in the same ɣ-particle have the same frequency and ampltude and their phase is synchronised in a certain way (which I can't describe very well, and this only matters because it allows a chiral property which will be important later).

The six circles in which the ε-particles move are all perpendicular to the direction the light is travelling. To define exactly how these are oriented I'll take a break from talking about the particle system to talk about a particular sequence of geometric shapes. This sequence has values for all dimensions of at least 2. For the value of dimension n, the process is as follows: (with the case n=3 in italics)
- Take a (n-1)-cube. (a square)
- Connect each vertex to the opposite vertex. (a square with two diagonals)
- Extrude the hypercube and connecting lines into the next dimension. (a cube with two perpendicular planes)
- Construct n copies of the connecting planes, oriented perpendicular to each axis. (six planes, each connecting pairs of opposite edges in the cube)
* Note that the resulting figure has n(2n-2) planes.
Now, each ε-particle orients itself into one of these six planes. The chiral property mentioned earlier determines which way the light travels (that is, forwards or backwards perpendicular to the cube).

Now, I've just defined one possible arrangements of ε-particles (the 6ε ɣ-particle). This arrangement is 3D, because the extra dimension is taken up by time. There is one other possible arrangement which is 4D. In general, with n time dimensions in the universe, there would be n+1 possible arrangements of ε-particles. However, I am only considering a universe with one time dimension, since there's really no need to boggle the mind with more than that. Anyway, the 4D arrangement is oriented in the same fashion, using the fourth value of the sequence, which has 16 planes. This arrangement forms matter, so I will call it μ. Notice that because a μ-particle is arranged in four dimensions, it does not have a direction to move in, so the chiral property cannot be reversed simply by "turning it around". Thus, the chiral property in this case actually introduces two distinct kinds of μ-particles, which I shall call μ+ and μ.

Chemistry

μ-particles can be seen to act as the "atoms" of this particle system. However, once again, they are very different to the atoms we know. Firstly, a lone μ-particle is like a lone hydrogen atom: very reactive! It'll probably react in some way with the first thing it touches, in some cases even light itself. This property can be used to convert energy into matter. Secondly, groups of two or three μ-particles are completely unstable, and decompose as follows:
- a group of all μ+s or all μs will repel each other and fly off in opposite directions, becoming lone μs,
- μ+μ will self-destruct, turning six such "molecules" into 16 ɣ-particles,
- μ+2μ or μ+μ2 will emit a lone μ of the majority kind and the remaining two μs will self-destruct as above.
This decomposition can be used to convert matter back into energy.

By this point you might be thinking "how do we form stable matter then?" This is done through four or more μ-particles in a "molecule". Generally (but not entirely), so long as there are at least two of each kind of μ-particle, the molecule will be stable enough to not spontaneously decompose, and the closer the ratio is to 1:1 the more stable it will be. There are a lot of possibilities here, most of which I haven't gone to the effort to work out yet. However, I've tried to identify gases up to 8μ so far (x:y means x of one kind and y of another, which kind is which does not matter) are:

- 2:2. This can exist in a square or tetrahedral arrangement (the two are completely equivalent).
- 2:3. This exists in a square pyramid or pentachoric arrangement. Is less stable than a 2:2.
- 2:4. This exists in a octahedral arrangement. Is more stable than 2:3, but less stable than 2:2.
- 3:3. This can only exist in a hexagonal arrangement and is the least stable so far. One of the counterexamples to the "closer the ratio is to 1:1" rule.
- 3:4. Exists in a "hexagonal + central cell" arrangement, is the most stable so far.
- 2:5. Exists as pentagonal bipyramid and is the least stable so far (less than 3:3).
- 4:4. Exists in a cubic arrangement and is quite stable. Not sure where to order it yet.
- 3:5. Not sure what form this would take yet.
- 2:6. The obvious choice is a hexagonal bipyramid like 2:5 but it'd be even less stable than that. There might be an alternative, more stable arrangement though.

I'll try and draw all these sometime, to show what I mean. And come up with possible chemical reactions.

Solids would likely be constructed from large tesseric lattices of alternating μ+ and μ particles. There could probably be other forms of lattices.

Metals would be a special form of solid, whose "μ"-particles overlapped. So, they wouldn't be real μ-particles, as they would share ε-particles, and wouldn't be chiral. Electricity would occur as free ε-particles moving through the metal lattice.

Space

I wasn't going to say much on gravity or planets, but I'm quite confident the "force function" could be set up to allow stable planetary orbits, with momentum dictating radius. That way, knocking something out of orbit would likely place it in another orbit, and instead of a planet spiraling into or away from its star, it would likely move in and out of its "neutral" orbit with simple harmonic motion - like this:
Image
This could create some interesting seasonal/weather phenomena - a civilization could use the orbital period as basis for their year, and the period of the SHM as basis for their week or month.

You could also have planets orbiting perpendicularly at the same radius, since there's an extra dimension to allow the orbits not to overlap. That would be interesting...
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby PWrong » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:02 pm

I don't completely follow the whole post yet, I hope I get time to read it properly this weekend. I just have two questions on the basics of the theory.

2. There is a function which determines, non-linearly, a force which acts on one ε-particle as attraction or repulsion from an arrangement of other ε-particles. I won't define how this function works yet (if ever!), because I'm sure it's quite complicated and its behaviour is responsible for ensuring that everything works as it should. I'll describe the behaviour in a passive, somewhat macroscopic way throughout the post.


What do you mean by non-linear here? Is it still radially symmetric? Does the force depend on relative momentum as well as the mass and distance? When you say the force depends on the arrangement of particles, do you mean you can't simply add up forces the way we do? I'd be worried about accidentally introducing special frames of reference and losing symmetries. The good news is that if you can choose the force however you like, then you can choose the resulting orbit however you like.

energy is more or less equivalent to EM radiation, i.e. light, and travels in groups of six ε-particles

Why six?
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby holomanga » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:14 am

How do you work out how stable an arrangement is? I want to make a complete periodic table.
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby Keiji » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:19 pm

PWrong wrote:I don't completely follow the whole post yet, I hope I get time to read it properly this weekend. I just have two questions on the basics of the theory.


I suppose you forgot to re-respond to the topic then? ;) (I'm no better - seeing how I just abandoned this forum for about a month!)

PWrong wrote:
2. There is a function which determines, non-linearly, a force which acts on one ε-particle as attraction or repulsion from an arrangement of other ε-particles. I won't define how this function works yet (if ever!), because I'm sure it's quite complicated and its behaviour is responsible for ensuring that everything works as it should. I'll describe the behaviour in a passive, somewhat macroscopic way throughout the post.


1. What do you mean by non-linear here?
2. Is it still radially symmetric?
3. Does the force depend on relative momentum as well as the mass and distance?
4. When you say the force depends on the arrangement of particles, do you mean you can't simply add up forces the way we do?
I'd be worried about accidentally introducing special frames of reference and losing symmetries. The good news is that if you can choose the force however you like, then you can choose the resulting orbit however you like.


1. The reason I worded it as I did is because I don't know enough to ensure (and don't have the effort to expend on proving) that some particular function will work for what I want it to do.

Non-linear is a bit of a misnomer - we are used to inverse square laws for instance which aren't linear (as they're quadratic, of course). I should probably have used the term non-monotonic, as I am quite sure that the function would have to have "peaks" (local maximums) in order for the system to work as I intended. I'm no particle physicist but I believe that summing the "real world" weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational forces between any two objects would produce a non-monotonic function and I expect that the function I'm talking about would look similar, but probably slightly more complicated.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by radially symmetric.

3. The force between two ε-particles in an otherwise empty universe is determined solely by the distance between them; orientation and velocity/momentum have no effect, and ε-particles do not intrinsically have mass (mass can be considered an illusion created by μ-particles).

4. I'm pretty sure that in general, when considering universes A, B and R where A contains ε-particles a and r, B contains ε-particles b and r and R contains ε-particles a, b and r (where particles have consistent positions between universes), the force exerted on particle r in universe R is not the sum of the forces exerted on particle r in universes A and B.
(I hope I worded that clearly enough)

It may actually turn out to be the case that it is always such a sum, which would let you add up the forces as we do, but I am under the impression that if such a rule held the system could not be complex enough to allow the orbits I was describing.

PWrong wrote:
energy is more or less equivalent to EM radiation, i.e. light, and travels in groups of six ε-particles

Why six?


Read the sequence I described shortly after that quote. The number of planes in its value for dimension 3 is 6, and the number in its value for dimension 4 is 24. This particle can actually be used for any dimension above 3, though the case considered in this topic is specifically 4D, so μ-particles use the 4D arrangement of 24 ε-particles, while ɣ-particles (which take up one dimension with their speed-of-light travel) use the 3D arrangement of 6 ε-particles.

holomanga wrote:How do you work out how stable an arrangement is? I want to make a complete periodic table.


So far I have only been going on intuition, I hope to come up with some actual rules that can be followed to determine stability at some point.
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby PWrong » Sun Sep 26, 2010 6:41 am

Non-linear is a bit of a misnomer - we are used to inverse square laws for instance which aren't linear (as they're quadratic, of course). I should probably have used the term non-monotonic, as I am quite sure that the function would have to have "peaks" (local maximums) in order for the system to work as I intended.


You could try something like f(r) = 1/r^3 + sin(r), with some constants in there. That would give you a bunch of potential wells. You wouldn't get elliptical orbits, you'd get orbits that spiral in and out near discretely placed circles.

I'm no particle physicist but I believe that summing the "real world" weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational forces between any two objects would produce a non-monotonic function and I expect that the function I'm talking about would look similar, but probably slightly more complicated.


I doubt it. It would probably look almost exactly like the strong force, because it's so strong it would overwhelm the others. I think they all follow 1/r^2 laws anyway, except one looks like (e^-r)/r^2 for some reason.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by radially symmetric.


It means the force only depends on the distance between the objects. If it wasn't, you'd have a lot of symmetry problems.

4. I'm pretty sure that in general, when considering universes A, B and R where A contains ε-particles a and r, B contains ε-particles b and r and R contains ε-particles a, b and r (where particles have consistent positions between universes), the force exerted on particle r in universe R is not the sum of the forces exerted on particle r in universes A and B.


Ok, that's pretty weird. I wonder if you could make that consistent.
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby Keiji » Sun Sep 26, 2010 1:56 pm

PWrong wrote:
Non-linear is a bit of a misnomer - we are used to inverse square laws for instance which aren't linear (as they're quadratic, of course). I should probably have used the term non-monotonic, as I am quite sure that the function would have to have "peaks" (local maximums) in order for the system to work as I intended.


You could try something like f(r) = 1/r^3 + sin(r), with some constants in there. That would give you a bunch of potential wells. You wouldn't get elliptical orbits, you'd get orbits that spiral in and out near discretely placed circles.


The simple "waveless" function looks like this, where as r→∞, fwaveless(r)→r-3:
Image

The complete function also needs waves formed by `tanh(x)/cosh(x)` (or similar) to appear, at ever-increasing distances and ever-decreasing amplitudes.

The closest I got was this:

g(x) = ktan(log(x))
f(x) = tanh(g(x)) / cosh(g(x)) / log(x)

where k must be sufficiently greater than 1; using 4 makes a pretty good graph.
But it has two problems - it contains an infinite number of waves in the interval 0 < x < e, and the waves decrease in frequency due to using log() to spread them out.

PWrong wrote:
I'm no particle physicist but I believe that summing the "real world" weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational forces between any two objects would produce a non-monotonic function and I expect that the function I'm talking about would look similar, but probably slightly more complicated.


I doubt it. It would probably look almost exactly like the strong force, because it's so strong it would overwhelm the others. I think they all follow 1/r^2 laws anyway, except one looks like (e^-r)/r^2 for some reason.


The strong force is strong, but it only takes hold at very low distances, right? And the electromagnetic force repels between objects of same sign charge, which would account for the non-monotonicity.

PWrong wrote:
2. I'm not sure what you mean by radially symmetric.


It means the force only depends on the distance between the objects. If it wasn't, you'd have a lot of symmetry problems.


Then yes, it's quite definitely radially symmetric.
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby PWrong » Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:13 am

The strong force is strong, but it only takes hold at very low distances, right?


The strong force holds quarks together. Quarks with different colours attract each other. Then the strong force has a "residual force" that holds protons and neutrons together, whose potential is e^-mr/r. Once that's done I guess the nucleus balances out so it doesn't produce any more strong force. In the same way that if you have a positive and negative charge together, the pair won't attract other charges.

And the electromagnetic force repels between objects of same sign charge, which would account for the non-monotonicity.


If you have two objects with the same charge, gravity attracts them with A/r^2, and EM repels them with B/r^2. The net force is just (A-B)/r^2.

g(x) = ktan(log(x))
f(x) = tanh(g(x)) / cosh(g(x)) / log(x)


There's a missing bracket here somewhere. Does it have to be this complicated? I don't see how you got this.
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby Keiji » Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:53 pm

PWrong wrote:
g(x) = ktan(log(x))
f(x) = tanh(g(x)) / cosh(g(x)) / log(x)


There's a missing bracket here somewhere. Does it have to be this complicated? I don't see how you got this.


No there isn't... the brackets are all matched fine :\

tanh(x) / cosh(x) produces a nice, single wave.
Replacing x with ktan(log(x)) produces a number of them at ever-increasing distances.
Dividing the lot by log(x) reduces the amplitude of later waves.
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby PWrong » Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:21 am

I'm getting a much weirder looking graph. Lots of large funny looking waves for large x, and a complicated pattern for small x.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Tanh(4+Tan(Log(x)))%2FCosh(4+Tan(Log(x)))+%2F+Log(x)+from+0+to+2
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Re: A new 4D particle system

Postby Keiji » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:51 pm

Uh... huh.

Weird.
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